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	<title>Comments on: Stop nesting menus</title>
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	<link>http://tworivers.com/blog/archives/267</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:16:22 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Hagan</title>
		<link>http://tworivers.com/blog/archives/267/comment-page-1#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>Hagan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 19:59:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tworivers.com/blog/?p=267#comment-29</guid>
		<description>Mike &amp; Calum - You&#039;re right: the design that I presented doesn&#039;t make use of keyboard mnemonics, at it would be difficult to add them, given the sheer number of items shown (I show 39 items in one menu, readily exceeding our 26-letter alphabet in one menu). 

Unfortunately, you are among a small number of users who actually use keyboard mnemonics. In my 20 years as an interaction designer, the only users I&#039;ve seen who regularly use mnemonics are software engineers. Most users are accustomed to moving back and forth between mouse and keyboard and aren&#039;t usually engaged with activities that have them at the keyboard for hours every day (unlike someone, for example, who is writing code).

That said, I do think that there are some applications that benefit from being keyboard driven, especially data entry intensive applications. Watching airline attendants check in passengers is a vivid example of an interface entirely driven without a mouse. My experience working with users in those environments, though, is that they prefer to rely on arrow keys, tabs, and enter keys rather than mnemonics... and the design that I&#039;ve shown could certainly support that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike &#038; Calum &#8211; You&#8217;re right: the design that I presented doesn&#8217;t make use of keyboard mnemonics, at it would be difficult to add them, given the sheer number of items shown (I show 39 items in one menu, readily exceeding our 26-letter alphabet in one menu). </p>
<p>Unfortunately, you are among a small number of users who actually use keyboard mnemonics. In my 20 years as an interaction designer, the only users I&#8217;ve seen who regularly use mnemonics are software engineers. Most users are accustomed to moving back and forth between mouse and keyboard and aren&#8217;t usually engaged with activities that have them at the keyboard for hours every day (unlike someone, for example, who is writing code).</p>
<p>That said, I do think that there are some applications that benefit from being keyboard driven, especially data entry intensive applications. Watching airline attendants check in passengers is a vivid example of an interface entirely driven without a mouse. My experience working with users in those environments, though, is that they prefer to rely on arrow keys, tabs, and enter keys rather than mnemonics&#8230; and the design that I&#8217;ve shown could certainly support that.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Starr</title>
		<link>http://tworivers.com/blog/archives/267/comment-page-1#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Starr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 19:44:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tworivers.com/blog/?p=267#comment-28</guid>
		<description>Calum makes a great point. Far too many applications are adopting a &quot;presumption of mouse usage&quot; (Office 2007 anybody?). In fact, the latest versions of Windows adopted a default setting of *not* displaying the keyboard shortcut underlining. It is displayed if one presses the {Alt} key but I found over the years that just seeing that underline often enough during mouse actions brought them into my subconscious enough that I could begin using them.

When a menu has twenty or more items, it&#039;s likely extremely difficult to come up with an appropriate {Alt} key letter for a particular menu item.

Perhaps the solution might be more menus but this becomes a challenge when an application becomes so powerful and complex that there just might not be enough room on the menu bar for enough menus to display all possible menu items in a single level.

For those of us who adopt keyboard shortcuts, flyout menus are much more user friendly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Calum makes a great point. Far too many applications are adopting a &#8220;presumption of mouse usage&#8221; (Office 2007 anybody?). In fact, the latest versions of Windows adopted a default setting of *not* displaying the keyboard shortcut underlining. It is displayed if one presses the {Alt} key but I found over the years that just seeing that underline often enough during mouse actions brought them into my subconscious enough that I could begin using them.</p>
<p>When a menu has twenty or more items, it&#8217;s likely extremely difficult to come up with an appropriate {Alt} key letter for a particular menu item.</p>
<p>Perhaps the solution might be more menus but this becomes a challenge when an application becomes so powerful and complex that there just might not be enough room on the menu bar for enough menus to display all possible menu items in a single level.</p>
<p>For those of us who adopt keyboard shortcuts, flyout menus are much more user friendly.</p>
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		<title>By: Henrique</title>
		<link>http://tworivers.com/blog/archives/267/comment-page-1#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>Henrique</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tworivers.com/blog/?p=267#comment-27</guid>
		<description>I like the multi-column menu approach, makes sense with today&#039;s screen resolutions, and let&#039;s you see everything that is available at one glance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the multi-column menu approach, makes sense with today&#8217;s screen resolutions, and let&#8217;s you see everything that is available at one glance.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Moore</title>
		<link>http://tworivers.com/blog/archives/267/comment-page-1#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tworivers.com/blog/?p=267#comment-26</guid>
		<description>I love it. Esp since the solution could be added to the Windows or OS X API any day now. Keyboard shortcuts and all.

The only thing that I see needs exploring is scrolling. What if the menu is too big for a netbook? Do we scroll vertically and horizontally? Of course it&#039;s a code thing, but dynamic re-columning would be great to prevent 2D scrolling.

And what if a &quot;sub-menu&quot; just has too many repetitive options (eg Google Chrome&#039;s Encoding menu)? You don&#039;t want to display them all. Maybe a scroll box inside the menu? Or a pop-up control?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love it. Esp since the solution could be added to the Windows or OS X API any day now. Keyboard shortcuts and all.</p>
<p>The only thing that I see needs exploring is scrolling. What if the menu is too big for a netbook? Do we scroll vertically and horizontally? Of course it&#8217;s a code thing, but dynamic re-columning would be great to prevent 2D scrolling.</p>
<p>And what if a &#8220;sub-menu&#8221; just has too many repetitive options (eg Google Chrome&#8217;s Encoding menu)? You don&#8217;t want to display them all. Maybe a scroll box inside the menu? Or a pop-up control?</p>
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		<title>By: Calum</title>
		<link>http://tworivers.com/blog/archives/267/comment-page-1#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>Calum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:48:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tworivers.com/blog/?p=267#comment-25</guid>
		<description>One advantage of nested menus is their keyboardability, which is important for accessibility.  File&gt;Import&gt;Windows Contacts?  No problem: Alt-F,I,W, a sequence unique to the whole application, which quickly becomes a memorable if used often.

Show more than a few items at once, and you&#039;ve lost the ability to assign meaningful shortcuts to every item.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One advantage of nested menus is their keyboardability, which is important for accessibility.  File&gt;Import&gt;Windows Contacts?  No problem: Alt-F,I,W, a sequence unique to the whole application, which quickly becomes a memorable if used often.</p>
<p>Show more than a few items at once, and you&#8217;ve lost the ability to assign meaningful shortcuts to every item.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Anderson</title>
		<link>http://tworivers.com/blog/archives/267/comment-page-1#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tworivers.com/blog/?p=267#comment-23</guid>
		<description>Interesting, but it seems to me that netbooks are taking us backwards a bit. I have noticed my wife&#039;s netbook has display issues with large dialog boxes and many menus run off the screen. What do you suggest?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting, but it seems to me that netbooks are taking us backwards a bit. I have noticed my wife&#8217;s netbook has display issues with large dialog boxes and many menus run off the screen. What do you suggest?</p>
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